FT5 vs Voron...is there that much difference

mlee 2021-06-14 19:38:46 UTC #1

After building an FT5 and an FT6 for work, I learned a lot of the pitfalls and a lot of information about 3D printers in general... So I decided to build my own for me.

I really like E3D stuff so I got a Hemera Direct, one of their high temp beds, borosilicate to match, Duet 3, etc. In other words I sat down and figured out what would my dream parts be and then I went for it thanks tax refund...

So I was going to base my build off the FT5 but then I saw a lot of people talking about the voron and I'm wondering is there a real advantage to the voron It seems highly over engineered. I have gotten really great results with the FT5 at work and if I spend another year or so I might get the FT6 up to the same place...lol. for all the extra cost and all the extra fiddling is the voron really worth it, or do you just get a little better quality...

csorrows 2021-06-15 12:26:10 UTC #2

As I gave input into the FT-5 redesign (R2), was the sole designer of the FT-6, and created the manuals for both, I will give you the best answer I can.

There is much more R&D and time put into the Voron designs. It's literally a team. The FT series are hobby grade printers designed to be a starting point for a customized and tailored machine. It is meant to be modified.

I consider the Voron line Prosumer. They are not meant to be modified. When built as designed, they are meant to be a finished product. From my experience, they are very well designed and tested machines.

As for printer kinematics, it's best to do the research yourself and learn the details that matter to you. Each type has it's good and bad points.

I hope this helps. Feel free to continue this thread if you have anymore questions or want to bounce something off of us. It's not the most active forum post wise, but there are regulars here that follow new posts. They are very knowledgeable. You can recognize them as they have a custom tag by their name. @Tin_Falcon and @Ron have been active lately.

The forum traffic is now mostly comprised of visitors using it as a reference or source of information. There is a ton of information here.

Ron 2021-06-15 19:19:22 UTC #3

Interesting.
I use my FT5 all the time, and though it took me a while to get it where I wanted it to be.
It is stable at this point.
I have no current plans to change anything on it.
It just works!

My interest in the Voron would mainly be if I didn't have an FT-5 already (in its current trim state).
But frankly, I really like @csorrows design concept for a follow-on FT-5 "R3", or whatever it would be called.
It ticks nearly all the boxes for me, and were I to scratch-build another printer I would very likely base it on that.
The additions I would then make would be a mains heated bed, auto power-off, geared dual side extruder, and elimination of the front cross bar, for starters.
But as a core product, I think the R3 would be a solid winner.
Let's hope FT comes back to life soon so the R3 might be released to the marketplace.

Full CoreXY, while very, very nice to have, is not "necessary" IMHO.
Because of the linear rails my H-Bot setup has proven to be very reliable, quiet and accurate.

I also totally agree with Chris's statement that the FT-5 is made to be modified.
And that was one of the major selling points that led me to purchase mine in the first place.
Others, such as the Ender4 that I purchased for our son are just fine, but are also "canned designs".
It is what it is, but it is also just about all that it can be (without incurring major headaches).

The FT6 is a marvel IMHO.
If I needed a larger format printer, I would be looking to get one for sure.
But to be honest about 95% of all the things I print are less than 150mm on any axis.

FWIW...

Tin_Falcon 2021-06-15 23:14:21 UTC #4

This IMHO is a bit of an open question as you are asking for a comparison of two printers to a whole family.
I have not studied the prints so no expert. I will throw out some random thought to the best of my ability.
the FT5/6 is a bit of a hobby horse where the vorons are more of a work horse.
The vorons are built for performance with virtually any filament.
the have thick aluminum build plates with mains heaters. and hot ends that can reach 400c. the core xy has both motors running in tandem . the other feature is blind holes that reduces hardware.
Keep in mind there are IIRC 5 different vorons all designed for a specific need / purpose. the v0 is a compact machine built for rapid prototyping so designers can iterate quicker.
another is designed with legacy features.

I challenge you to study the various voron plans. then ask yourself if you need one or ask yourseft which one you may want to build.

3D printers are are like many other thinks in life there is pretty much a price point for everyone. and in general you can get 80% performance for 20 % of the price. But if you want or need high quality performance and durability that will cost a bit more.

the other $10,000 questions if Folger tech will even be offering kits any time soon . And how will the current chip shortage affect the their supply chain.

mlee 2021-06-15 23:32:22 UTC #5

I have already modified my FT5 quite a bit. I have thoroughly enjoyed it. The FT6 worked well, after I ditched the Orange Pi and the touch screen. Although I did have a recent issue with dried grease in the linear bearing that caused some issues.

The R3 revision is intriguing, Just curious, why are the three lead screws so exciting? I refuse to do a bowden, the FT6 is giving tons of trouble hopefully the spring upgrade will fix it. My FT5 has given me no zaxis problems, it is a workhorse.

I have a main hotbed coming tomorrow. I only purchased high end parts E3D, my goal is to be able to print Nylon X and everything else I can. I more interested in quality than quantity.

I run Simplify, a Titan Aero, and mostly eSun Filament. Unfotunately, some of the colors from USMonofilament give me tons of trouble.

Thanks for your Advice

mlee 2021-06-15 23:43:02 UTC #6

Since I read your reply, I've looked over the other designs. Thank you VERY much for saying something... the 1.8 looks more like what I'm after. I had no idea that they had so many versions...

As I told Ron, I'm getting the E3D Hemera tomorrow, and their main bed. Which ought to be able to print Nylon X which is my goal.

Mainly I'm making things for myself and friends. Prototype in PLA, print a finished part in PETG or Nylon X.

I agree with you about the price... Tomorrows shipment is $900, and that is just electronics, motors, hot end, and bed. $300 dropped at amazon, and others...probably end up somewhere in the neighborhood of $1200 when said and done.

Thanks Again...

csorrows 2021-06-16 14:16:39 UTC #7

The 3 lead screw setup on Z is for auto leveling.

The concept I posted was based on a mix of the FT-5 and dual FT-6 with CoreXY sprinkled in. I had planned to also do a single extrusion direct feed version.

I was only responsible for the main design. John sourced the parts. My version only had the standard RepRap LCD. All the different versions came after the original design and were requested by John.

Aye, here I am going off topic.

mlee 2021-06-16 16:39:33 UTC #8

After I wrote my reply, I realized WHY three is a huge deal. Since I went with the Duet 3 board, I have more than enough room to put in three lead screws, definitely going that way.

I really like the design of the FT5 and 6, that's why I'm going to stick with Cartesian. Hope you don't mind...

I might do a Voron in the future, but I'll start with a good solid machine.

Thanks

Ron 2021-06-16 20:11:16 UTC #9

Speaking only for myself, the three lead screw bed is exciting to me because three points defines a plane.
They could be driven by three separate motors, which then could truly auto-level the bed if using the right software and sensor setup.
Or they could be belted and sync'd together so they would always move in unison.
The bed could then be carefully leveled using the regular adjusting screws and it shouldn't ever go much (if any) out of level after that.
Or some combination between the two.

My printer has always had the two lead screws belted together since day one (it is an R1 by the way) because to do otherwise made no sense to me.
So technically speaking my printer has never been "stock".
The front-rear play problem however was more of a challenge.
I solved that by running double bearings at all four corners.
That being said, if running three lead screws it should not have been an issue in the first place.

I only run three leveling screws on my print bed, two rear, one front.
I run very stiff springs between the Z plate and the heater plate so the level doesn't change much.
Plus I am running a level sensor (BL Touch clone) on the print head.
I can easily get it adjusted to the point where the level compensation feature of the software only takes a few steps of the Z motion when traveling for long distances in any direction.

As for a build/print surface, I am running a thick piece of aluminum tooling plate that I bought from a local metals dealer.
It has a 750 watt mains heater bonded to it, then a layer of Sil-Pad thermally conductive material, then a borosilicate glass plate.
It is quite flat.
It heats from dead cold to 90C printing temperature in less then 7 minutes if it is really cold in the garage, but more typically less than 5 minutes this time of year.

If by Cartesian you mean completely separate X and Y motions, I can sympathize.
The main reason I went with H-Bot on mine was to reduce noise and to reduce the two Y motors fighting each other due to the tiny variations between them (microstepping is always a compromise that is somewhat motor-dependent).
It is now so quiet that the only things I hear much are the cooling fans and the Z axis doing its automatic level compensation during prints (it turns the Z plate into somewhat of a drum head).

mlee 2021-06-16 21:29:56 UTC #10

Awesome!
I've checked over the RepRap firmware, and it does support autoleveling with three z stepper motors. The Duet 3 has 6 drivers built in, so I have enough to go on. I'm going to buy all E3D motors to try and minimize microstepping (fingers crossed). Got a 1100 watt bed, boroscilicate, and PEI. Man I love that PEI.

One of the first mods I made to my FT5 was heavier longer springs, I ordered new springs before I ever got my FT6. I will have 4 screws and springs on this for gross adjustments, and trust to the BL Touch and Z motors for fine tuning. Very exciting. Almost all my parts are here, now just have to design it...

I will start a new topic and post pics and progress if you gentlemen are interested. I really appreciate the advice, I can see building more in my future...

csorrows 2021-06-17 07:32:29 UTC #11

By H-Bot do you mean you changed the kinematics? I don't seem to remember this. H-Bot Kinematics.

I have seen a lot of confusion on what exactly H-Bot is. I'm just trying to clarify, not calling you out.

This design did indeed have 3 separate steppers for true auto leveling. John was going to make a custom extension board for the controller to drive them.

If you are referring to the 0.9 degree steppers, be careful. They have reduced torque due to the smaller steps.

I run Makerbot extruder springs on both of my FT-5s (R1 and R2). I always felt the supplied springs were too weak and pretty short..

Ron 2021-06-17 15:22:28 UTC #12

No problem.
Yes, I changed the kinematics of the X/Y motion setup.
It now has only two motors (X+Y and X-Y) at the back using a single very long belt.
It eliminated the X motor from the carriage entirely.
Then with the DotBit extruder (thanks once again for your excellent suggestion of it!) I am able to run a pancake motor on the direct drive extruder setup.
Between these two things alone it made a major reduction in the moving mass.
All of the bracket parts on the carriage are printed now except for the original two mounting plates between the X-direction 2020 stock and the slide blocks (they were still OK).
I even re-designed and printed the duct for the E3Dv6 fan to tilt the fan with a 15 degree angle so as to be a bit kinder to its bearings.
Here are some CAD renderings of my setup as it is now (please pardon the crude DotBit extruder model though)-

I would be happy to take and post actual photos of the installation if you would like.

However the CAD renderings are easier to understand because they don't have all the clutter.
And I would be more than happy to share the CAD files with you if you wish.
I already posted the E3Dv6 fan duct design on Thingiverse, and was considering posting the H-Bot conversion parts as well, but they would take a fair amount of work to clean up for general posting.
Plus, I used metal spacers and a metal mounting plate on the carriage that possibly not everyone could fabricate.

Here is a photo of the double Z plate bearing setup and a glimpse of the thick heater plate I am running-

The double bearings made a world of difference.
And I added some thin aluminum angle ribs below the drive plate to eliminate any sagging problems (it is still the original melamine).
I am, as a reminder, running a single Z motor with a 1360mm belt.

Interesting.
That would be quite a good feature, I think.

I bought mine at Ace Hardware.
Our local store has an excellent selection.
I don't recall the part number but they are conical in shape and are definitely stout.

csorrows 2021-06-18 11:37:51 UTC #13

That's amazing work. I somehow missed that if you had posted about it. I have read every thread on the forum. I had thought about the double bearing on the bed plate as well, I'm glad my thinking wasn't wrong and it did indeed make an improvement on bed stability.

For the sake of not hijacking @mlee 's thread, lets continue this in a new thread if you so desire. I could also move your reply to a new thread if you would like. I'm not sure if users not at the top trust level can do that themselves. I think it's fine as is, it just would be more easily found in a thread of it's own for our visitors.

mlee 2021-06-18 12:48:53 UTC #14

The double bearing ia great idea, I have enough that I could do that. Question: if going with a three lead screw autolevel, could the double bearing increase the risk of binding?

Ron 2021-06-18 15:00:28 UTC #15

Thank you, I greatly appreciate that.
The double bearings were extremely simple to install and they work like a charm.
I would highly recommend them as a "must do" mod for FT-5 printers (R1 or R2).

If you would like to move the reply to a new thread that would be fine with me.
I don't think I can move the posts myself.
Frankly I'm not sure how many people would be interested in an H-Bot conversion though.
Most people seem fixated on true Core-XY (which I wholly agree is superior).
But H-Bot works very well as long as racking can be prevented and it is charmingly simple and easy to understand.
It also requires fewer pulleys and less belting.

Thanks.
I did the double bearing addition a very long time ago and it has never caused any issues whatsoever, it has only provided benefits.
For the cost (under $25 as I recall) it was one of the cheapest and most effective modifications I have done to my printer.
I doubt that it would cause any problems with three lead screws (such as in Chris's design) because there would be just the two rods with the bearings which would be acting only as horizontal positioning references (I presume that is Chris's intent).
And the bed shouldn't ever be so far out of level that they would bind up.
So with that being said, double bearings probably wouldn't really provide a great deal of benefit.
The three lead screws are doing all the work to keep the bed level in that situation, not the guide rods, and you would want some "looseness" in the assembly so the three motors could operate effectively.
Therefore I would think that with three lead screws you would only need single bearings.

csorrows 2021-06-20 09:45:04 UTC #16

Yes, the smooth rods are only there to provide horizontal alignment. It takes advantage of the slight bit of tilt the single bearings allow. I would probably also suggest using the single LMUU type to allow even more tilt. I believe the stock FT ones have either a double stack of LMUU or a longer type than standard. I'm not up to going out to the shop ATM to check one but I have seen shorter ones. Also 10mm or even 12mm smooth rods would be beneficial here. They are static so no worry of added weight.

Ron 2021-06-20 15:23:24 UTC #17

I agree, there would be no reason (other than cost perhaps) not to use larger rods in this application.
My suggestion would be 10mm, which should be more than adequate as long as the rods are constrained on both ends, as I recall you showing.
If I remember my ME classes correctly the lateral stiffness of two 10mm rods would be roughly the same as four 8mm rods.
Two 12mm rods would be about as stiff as six or seven 8mm rods.
Given the small lateral forces that should be in play I doubt that the 12mm rods would be needed, though vibrations and resonances would need to be taken into account.

csorrows 2021-06-20 18:16:07 UTC #18

If I get time during my days off, I think I'm going to create some more images of the R3 concept and create a discussion thread about it. Google loves crawling the forum. I think it would be funny to add FT-5 R3 Google search results.

Plus, I feel we have gotten slightly off topic here. As most of the traffic comes from Google search results, I prefer to keep the results relevant. Not that the forum gets any ad revenue from it anymore. I try to keep it a good source for information.

Tin_Falcon 2021-10-05 09:33:27 UTC #19

That may be the point. The voron design's were conceived by a team of engineers to solve a problem. To be sourced by the builder. Not as a kit. The ultimate printer for the time if you will.

The ft 5-6 were designed as affordable kits, at a low price and intended to be tinkered with. Or upgraded if you will. When I built mine I upgraded the power supply and the extuder/hotend with a titan/aero . this was before the himera was available.

There are many more options now that 5 years ago.
Engineering is always a bit of trade off. If you want a printer that is portable that one can take to a disaster zone of the fields of Africa. Then 12 volt system s the way to go. Compact light weight yet solid and reliable. A home/ studio machine has different requirements.
24 volts has its advantages as does mains heat bed.
ANd size does matter. 3d printing uses the cube rule double the size and the item will take 8 times as long to print.

It seems like you have enough engineering knowledge and horse sense to know what you need and want in a 3d printer.
so pick those features and go for it.